In this episode, we're going to be talking about all things ADHD. So whether you have it yourself, you think you might have it, you sometimes wonder, or whether you work with, know, or love people who do have ADHD, then you are going to learn so much about how to support yourself and how to support other people.
Just to give you a heads up though, before we start there's one very short mention of suicidal thoughts when we're talking about mental health in ADHD. It's not a big topic of discussion, but it does come up, so I wanted to mention it. And there is also a little bit more swearing in this episode than there usually is, so you have been warned.
Vikki: Hello and welcome to the PhD Life Coach, and I have a guest with me again this week. I am super excited to introduce Alex Connor, who is a good friend and ex colleague of mine and expert in all things ADHD. So today we're going to be thinking about how ADHD impacts people while they're doing their PhD, what support they should be getting, and how they can support themselves through that process too. So Alex, tell us a little bit about you and what you do.
Alex: Well, hello. It's nice to be here. Thanks for inviting me. I'm Alex. I've worked in, in ADHD. I have this thing called knowledge equity. I learned because someone told me which, so I've worked in brain science, as you well know, Vikki, for, for decades and including publishing a little bit on neurodivergent conditions, including ADHD, but I'm also a consultant now in ADHD, I'm an ADHD coach, but I have ADHD now. I was diagnosed as an adult. And what that's taught me is a lot of the science and a lot of the advice you give as an ADHD coach isn't particularly helpful. I often call it the ADHD hacks, tips and tricks that either don't work or stop working. Because we're all so different and really it's that, it's that sort of triumvirate that brings me to the table. I don't know about the word expert, that makes me nervous.
Vikki: I'll, I'll give the word expert, that's okay. You can borrow my belief in that for a while. And one of the things I love about talking with you about this stuff is you were right at the very beginning of my, my journey of...
Alex: Inappropriately.
Vikki: Inappropriately,at the beginning of my not diagnosis, and I'll tell that story as well. So I, I'm not diagnosed with ADHD. Um, I've always thought of myself as being relatively chaotic, but I get through by being kind of... clever and able to wing it, but that I'm very disorganized and all of those sorts of things.
Um, anyway, that was just my life. It was all good. And then, um, not long before the pandemic, actually, um, Alex and I knew each other in various ways through work. And we, um, we were having coffee to talk about different, like things we collaborate on and stuff, weren't we? And we got on talking about your ADHD and you said to me, anyway, when were you diagnosed?
And I was like, um, What now? And you, I mean you can tell the story, but you were mortified, I remember.
Oh, it's not the first time I've done it as well. I approach that conversation very differentlyl these days, but yeah, awful.
Because I guess from your point of view. We shouldn't be kind of just throwing around diagnoses, but I think I remember you telling me at the time that, um, it just hadn't crossed your mind that I didn't know.
Alex: Sorry.
Vikki: I love it. And it opened up so many things for me because it was from there that I started thinking, ah, All right. And started, you know, knowledge accumulator and all that started listening to podcasts and all that. This was before your podcast existed, but listening to, Kristen Carder's, Focussed podcast, entering her program ultimately. And the comedy bit is I'm still not diagnosed because I've waited two years on the waiting list. Finally got, um, referred for my appointment, forgot to fill the forms and got embarrassed that I hadn't replied to the emails and they discharged me a year later.
Alex: You wouldn't believe how many times I've heard the same story.
Vikki: Yeah, anyway, so that's our background and how this all came about, but Alex, catch up to speed anybody listening who isn't, how would you define ADHD? Because we see tons of stuff on social media.
Alex: Yeah. And, and, and the first thing is this, there's lots of different ways it presents any, anything on the TikToks or so on. It gives you a simple answer to what is complex. question, klaxons and red flags should be going because it's, it's not so clear. In general, in general, it's, it's a problem with how we, um, we convert our intention to do things with our action to do things. How, how we choose what to think about and for how long, and what not to think about. How to stop thinking about stuff, how to stop doing stuff, how to do stuff that we know we've got to do. We would really change the name if we could to Intention and Emotional Regulation Disorder because that's a lot of what it is, including our emotions. Really, a deficit in everybody's language means lack of, right, except scientists like us, medical people, which, where it also means, doesn't work properly. So we haven't got less attention. We just don't always get to choose what to pay attention to and for how long. And about half of us are hyperactive, maybe more actually as well, either internally or externally. And it can cause so many problems. Well, what it is medically is very different to how it feels. And that's...
Vikki: Before you go on Alex, sorry, we're going to do the interrupting thing because that's ADHD too. say a little bit more about that internally and externally thing because I think that's one of the things that meant it never got sort of seen in me earlier.
Alex: Yeah, and actually, in gender terms, that's often the case. I am certain, after reading a lot of papers on this, that that's a cultural thing, that women and young girls are oppressed from demonstrating their hyperactivity, in the same way as young boys are. And so they internalize their hyperactivity, not, not all of them by no means. And, and what we notice is when you get to adult levels, the diagnostic levels are similar. Because everybody's culturally internalized and maybe even biologically internalized their hyperactivity. So I always say it's like there's bees in my head. It never bloody stops, except so I have quite a well established alcohol use disorder and other things. And that was the only thing I used to find apart from, uh, heroic amounts of cocaine that would just quieten it down for a while. Um, and, and if you've got this busy brain or busy body and I have both. It's inherently incredibly frustrating and kind of debilitating, or it was for me.
Vikki: No, for sure. I think mine probably falls somewhere in between the two, which is I think most people who know me would know it as verbal hyperactivity. So internally, there's a lot going on. There's a lot of 47 stories at once. Um, but the way it presented for me especially as a child, I'm somewhat better at kind of, some would say masking, some would say managing, um, it now, but as a child, it was certainly an absolute inability not to say the thing that was in my head, whether somebody else was talking, whether it was impertinent, whether it was just enthusiastic, whether it was, I remember being a teenager having, you know, when you have your first few jobs as a teenager and stuff. I could not work for somebody who I thought I knew how they should do it, and they didn't without telling them. how they should do their jobs.
Alex: Without being asked as well.
Vikki: Oh, without being asked. Absolutely. But it was in my head, so it was out of my mouth. And, um, yeah. And that, as you can imagine, sometimes it went really well, other times less so. I maintain I've grown into my ADHD because as you become a leader saying a lot of these things becomes more appropriate.
Alex: Yeah. Yeah, it does. Power, social power and social capital are big things, aren't they? They allow it.
Vikki: For sure, for sure. Okay, so we know, well, do you know, I mean, I'm going to put you on the spot now. Do you know any statistics about students having sort of rates of ADHD amongst undergraduate students, research students?
Alex: Yes, of course I do. Um, so, the numbers are always, science in ADHD is crap because it isn't funded properly, the researchers are fantastic, their levels of funding is laughable, so they do what they can with the money they've got, and it's great. So the estimates of ADHD in adults, generally in the population, in different countries as well, take out America, and... China and a few like that, but in general, you're looking at two and a half percent of the population, one in 40 people probably would qualify for an ADHD diagnosis, and the number of people being treated or medicated for that is vastly lower. So all these things about it's overdiagnosed, it's just nonsense. Um, what we know is that you, if you have ADHD, you are less likely to access higher education in the first place. If you get into university, you are less likely to, uh, get the grades concomitant with your intellectual ability because the structural barriers in place are, are ableist, frankly. You are less likely to stay in university. You're more likely to leave. And even after that, you are less likely to be employed concomitant with your intellectual and academic. qualifications. So I have numbers, but they're boring. Really it's, it's so obvious that we, we don't access it well enough. We don't do as well. And most of that, almost all of it actually would be mitigated back to standard normal levels with support and or treatment.
Vikki: What I find fascinating, and I don't know if there's research on this or whether it's just me speculating, is I meet an enormous number of women with ADHD in higher education, and I don't meet anywhere near as many men. And I wonder whether that's just my biases of who I'm meeting and who's talking to me, or whether it's something about women with ADHD kind of... plowing into the, you know, with, with education, there's like clear instructions and you're eager to please and you've got tons of energy and you're enthusiastic and you find it all interesting. And I see them struggling more with burnout and those sorts of things, rather than with low performance. The ones I, I've had, and I know there's a selection bias as to who I'm engaging with, but I was a personal tutor as you were for a really long time. And that was certainly a sort of pattern that I was seeing.
Alex: So the first thing to say is there are fewer men and women with ADHD than. Without in the whole higher education sector, it's, it isn't, it isn't a breeding ground for, you know, it isn't a career that's positive for ADHD. There aren't any really, there are better ones, but actually it's support we need. People with ADHD can do any career they want to, as long as they're supported in it, it's about intention and an ability. What we have noticed a lot, and predominantly, sorry about the anecdotes here, but what we've noticed, so I co founded a charity called ADHD Adult UK, and what we notice is that women, adult women, are much more likely to talk openly about their ADHD. The stigma is there for both genders, obviously, I'm using gender advisedly, um, but it does, there's far less, far less, um, reticence in, in adult women we've noticed and men. Men contact us on the down low so much and the, the, the terrified nature of admitting to anybody this thing is strange. It seems more than a lot of other psychiatric illnesses like, depression, anxiety, and none of them are particularly loved. If you consider your ADHD a difference, by the way, instead of a disability, I apologize. I'm not telling you what you are. You people can choose absolutely how they identify. I think it's somewhere in the middle for me, but I was just, just using it medically then. Yeah. I think it's more about culture.
Vikki: Yeah, I think there's also just an element of like attracts like that, um, you know, I tended to talk after all my realizations, I tended to talk a bit about not just undiagnosed ADHD, but the things that I found difficult. And then I would get students approaching me going, Oh my goodness, you're a professor and you did this and you found that and you, and you, you struggle with this, you know, you, you fail to turn up to meetings or whatever it is. Um, and I think that's probably where I get exposed to a lot of women with ADHD is because they see me and then see me see it as a sort of a safe space to come and to come and talk to me, I think. Okay, so you sort of touched on this a little bit, but thinking specifically about PhD students and academics who are the, the sort of audience of this podcast, um, in what ways is academia challenging for people with ADHD? Um, other than in every possible way.
Alex: Yeah, I mean, it is a really... What I would, what I would do to answer this question, really, is, is I would have a look at the diagnostic symptoms of ADHD and I would choose any one at random and I would ask, how, how would that be if you had ADHD? How might that affect you? So, for example, if you look at the key challenges of postgraduate study or in academia, um, time management. organization of a PhD of experiments or research and, and, and the thesis, managing relationships with a hierarchy like a supervisor, facing feedback and criticism when you have rejection, sensitivity, emotional dysregulation, procrastination. You've got to start a thesis. It's a big, boring book. Finishing a single project when you're bored. Add to that that you're more likely to be a mature student with life baggage or children, as they like to be called, and any level of intersectionality adds a second additional stress onto that. The financial constraints, having to have more focused learning objectives when you're someone that struggles. It's like, it's like the anti ADHD, and I don't say that lightly. If it's your special interest, your hyper focus, then fantastic. Even then, achieving the actual PhD has phenomenally obvious structural barriers.
Vikki: Yeah, no, for sure. And we'll talk in a second about what universities can do to support that. But in a, in a past podcast, I talked about getting my PhD and how I accidentally ended up in the most ridiculously supportive environment that I could have done. They didn't know it was an ADHD supportive environment. They weren't doing it on purpose. And to be honest, they weren't even doing it specifically for me. It was just how they supervised me. Um. And so I had never really experienced, and I'm still sort of figuring out in my head, how, how the things that I find difficult have impacted me versus not, because so much of the beginning of my academic career was in this very sort of supportive and connected, um, setting. Which meant that after that, there was many, many, many years of feeling incredibly overwhelmed and incredibly behind. whilst at the same time performing really well, which is a weird combination.
Alex: It is, but it's something I have to say a lot to people who say, but you did really well, is doing well is not the same as healthy.
Vikki: Yes, no, definitely.
Alex: It's so important. It's so important. At the point at which I was probably, and I remember literally being called, oh yeah, you're the golden child or something like that, when, when I was doing all right, was that I thought seriously about suicide, uh, trigger warning, and you, you don't know what, nobody would understand why if they don't understand the difference between external and internal success and being something you're not and the, the, the massive, and this again, gendered, I know, but especially with women, making everybody else happy at the expense of your physical and mental health is, is, is a pandemic. And, and it's a gender heavy pandemic as well. I, I, I can't deny that really. And the amount it costs us and especially women is just huge.
Vikki: So what should universities be doing more of? Because we have, we have academic listeners, um, in all sorts of different roles, but also for the PhD students that are listening, what should they be asking their universities for?
Alex: No, it's really good. Follow the evidence firstly. So giving you, so you, I know you're not diagnosed, but I'm fairly certain I know how you'll react to this. So, how do you feel, Vikki, when I tell you that most universities give ADHD people who are bored in an exam an extra half an hour? Would that, would that have helped you?
Vikki: Not on any level.
Alex: And actually the evidence, the papers say the same.
Vikki: Time was not the problem.
Alex: No, and there's some brilliant universities out there who are now giving structured, monitored exam breaks. So they stop the clock for 20 minutes and you just walk around a bit and then you're not allowed to chat but you can go and that I think is much healthier if that's what the individual needs, which is the main thing really, ask them. When you've met one person with ADHD, you've met one person with ADHD and we all express our... the core symptoms are very similar, the, the expression of them is based on our psychology and culture and lots of other things. So what would help, what has helped in the past, we have metacognition problems, so we often go, I don't know, I've never, I've never thought about it and that's not being obtuse, it's because we don't pay attention to what we pay attention to either. So maybe start with, when were you successful and when did that feel easier for you? Because there's success that comes at a cost and then there's success that feels like skiving, right? And, and I know, I know a little bit about your accidental ADHD friendly background. When you were having these lunchtime meetings that you thought was fun, but you were learning loads, that's what you need to do. You know, that's your, that's your reasonable adjustment.
Vikki: Yeah, definitely. That sort of, for me, anything that created social connection and enthusiasm, I can work as hard as you want without burning out as long as I'm enthusiastic about the thing. I don't get the kind of absolute hyper focus where the enthusiasm turns into, um, burnout feelings. My burnout comes when I'm trying to do lots of things that I don't want to do, and I don't think I should have to do, and that are boring, which as you can imagine, as I got further into this, it became more and more often. Um, but as long as I feel connected and enthusiastic, I can do loads and love it and still have a life outside it. Um, and so that's why I'm, you know, we talked. Before a bit about our, our own businesses, but that's part of what I'm trying to bring into my business more now, because I've worked on my own for a year and, um, trying to now think, right, actually I need to have some of this more social and sort of opportunities for enthusiasm with others and it's making a world of difference. So yeah, I think that's a great way to look at it. What, when has it been good for you?
Alex: I've got three or four just very quick examples of things that can work for some people with ADHD, most I would say, but before I do, if you're out there and you're thinking, wouldn't that work for everybody? Yes. Yes. We wish all the things that work for ADHD would work, we think for everybody. And so it doesn't need, we don't need special. It's just that this, this is this, we need this. It's not just, it would be ideal. We need it. It's like saying, you know, an elevator to the 50th floor would be ideal for everyone but for someone in a wheelchair it would be a requirement and that's why if this sounds like well isn't that everyone yes it is um but some of the things that might work is what we'd really love is if universities and some of them do this is to not demand a diagnosis for reasonable adjustments. They're reasonable for a reason, um, 90 percent of adults who would qualify of an ADHD diagnosis aren't diagnosed, 80 to 90%.
Alex: The NHS waiting list is, can be up to 13 years at the moment, Vikki. So, most students who, who got referred by their NHS GPS at Freshers week would not be diagnosed by the time they graduate. So, it isn't super helpful to be saying they should be getting a diagnosis. When you're writing modules or courses, any learning objectives, any assessment, we would ask, we would like you to ask, What is this approach necessary to achieve the learning objectives. So if you are measuring time keeping in your module, great, include it. If you think, oh, well, they've got to be resilient. Are you measuring resilience and your definition of resilience? Well, they've got to be able to do that because they're resilient. Is that your job to measure resilience? And if it is great, knock yourself out. If it isn't, are you measuring working memory? Why? Why is that? You're, you know, if you're not, are you? I, as you know, I speak German, um, half of my life, and I thought I couldn't learn languages. And it turns out I don't have a working memory. That's a really short term scribble pad memory, not the, I've got good memory, good short term, good long term, but my scribble pad in front of me, I don't really have an effective one. Most of us don't have a good one. So when the bit about... in languages where they read you out a passage and then they say was Jean Luc or was it Henrietta that was at university? I would be thinking I've never heard those two names in my life. And so I couldn't answer the question. And that's not a problem with my, with my language. So if you're not testing working memory, why are you expecting people to remember? Um, education for the students, really for the staff though, and the support systems, it's a recognized neurodevelopmental disorder and the symptoms are manageable, both medically with drugs, medically with treatment and non medically with talking therapy and technical support. If you could shape teaching and the support of teaching the assessment to take into account executive dysfunction. And that means that the planning and organization the brain does, the higher order functioning of the brain. So, specific examples would be short, clear milestones written down. A deadline reminder would be really helpful as well. Um, if you could enable agency and empower students with ADHD to, to be able to, to self author how they achieve the learning objective. So what, helping them understand what their strengths are and why they're doing this, what are their goals? If, if it really doesn't matter how they demonstrate the understanding of, of a bridge being built to you, some of them might prefer an essay, some of them might prefer a presentation.
Alex: If it really doesn't matter what, you know, could we be flexible? Is that okay? Um, we burn with shame on feedback. Feedback can be the most destructive thing. There's a thing called Rejection Sensitive Disorder or dysphoria. No one likes rejection. Of course they don't. If you've got sunburn, a slap on the back hurts a lot more and it's a bit like that. Call it emotional sunburn sometimes. So solicited feedback. So if you, if you have a student and you, and you need them to know something, great. If you don't, asking a student what kind of feedback would be helpful. It's a fantastic way for them to, to author their own learning and then it isn't feedback. They're asking for constructive criticism. And then if you've got ADHD on, on its own, you're very much in the minority. Um, so promoting awareness of commonly coexisting conditions. I call that ADHD plus, which I've stolen unashamedly from the, from the deaf community. Any conversations around available support and adjustments, ask is, has this person got a coexisting condition as well? Depression, anxiety, um, they might be autistic, they're loads and loads of different things and some physical things as well. So that would be something we would really encourage. the last thing is if there's one bit of advice I can give any organisational group trying to support people with ADHD, it's to remember nothing about us without us. It's so important to listen to people with ADHD and hear what we're saying, because otherwise you end up with an extra half an hour on exams that doesn't help anyone.
Vikki: This is super useful because, like I say, it speaks to both the different parts of the audience of this podcast, I think it's really useful to know these. I would add one for myself, and I think it goes alongside that education of tutors. The thing that changed my mental health around all of this, unbelievably, when I realized that this might be what the issue was, was people who would respond to my issues with Oh yeah, of course you do that. Yeah. But yeah, well, that's okay. Rather than, whereas previously, so previously I would, um, well, I still do, you know, forget to put meetings in my diary or forget people's birthdays or, you know, carry on doing something for too long and then realize that I was meant to switch something or all those kinds of things that are really, really typical and tutors and lots of helpful people in my life would always say things like, Oh, you know, I don't understand because, you know, you know when it was, you had it in your diary, you looked at your diary. So I don't understand how you didn't just turn up those sorts of things, you know. Have you tried a planner?
Alex: Yes. I own all of them. And I might go and buy another one today, then it'll change my life. So we have a, so we have a podcast that's silly that I've got the background here. We're starting season two on November 6th. Vikki, if you want a massive, massive clanging plug.
Vikki: Absolutely.
Alex: One of our merch is, is a t shirt that says ADHD making simple things look difficult. That's how it feels, right? Just awful.
Vikki: Yeah, and, but somehow, and I don't know if this is just me, you can tell me, somehow it feels so much better to me, when someone says, well, yeah, of course that's hard. You know, what, how can, what ways can we make it easier rather than either the just word you just need to X, which for me always takes away the idea that this is hard. It's like, well, There's this really simple solution. Just do that. All that shock. I even went to coaches. It was partly why I wanted to train as a coach because I've had basic accountability coaches in the past who, when I would come, I just start avoiding them after a while, as I'm sure you can imagine, you know, I'd go to a coaching session and. They'd be like, Oh, so how did you get on? No, I didn't do any of those things. Oh, but you know, we went through the options and you pick the one you like best. You seemed really motivated and really keen. I was like, yeah, yeah, I was. Yeah. It was definitely what I wanted to do. Why I didn't. And they'd look at me like, like there was something wrong with me, but not like it was ADHD, you see what I mean? Like I was just. Completely inexplicable to them and just having coaches or friends who know about ADHD to say, of course not. That's okay. It's groundbreaking.
Alex: Shame and the guilt. One thing that people think is that we get bored, we don't want to do things because we find them boring. No, we really are interested. Sometimes I can't hear verbal, verbal instructions. For example, if someone's talking to me, it's, it's like the words jumble in my head, even though I really, really am interested. I want to do these things more than anybody wants me to do them. The shame, the guilt, and the self hatred burns inside of me that I've done it again. And I look down and I've learned the kings and queens of England in order instead of applying for that promotion. And I can't believe it's happened again, again. And so what you're saying is that people saying to you, Oh yeah, of course, you know, because, because you, your brain works differently or it's a disorder, whichever you choose, and therefore your abilities here are clear, but you have challenges here. It's such a, such a relief. It almost makes me want to cry at the thought that I'm not just a dick. Yeah. Sorry, I don't know if I'm allowed to. You can say that. It's all good. It's all good.
Vikki: Yeah. For me, and I think back in the day, probably when I was working with students previously, so I've got a few ex students on here before I knew all this, I would probably say these annoying things to them because I was saying them to myself. Yeah. So I inevitably was saying to my students, you just need to do this. You just need to get a system, dah, dah, dah. Whereas knowing what I know now, you telling me that about your, um, the Kings and Queens, partly I'd go off on a tangent about how I'm currently learning all the countries in Africa doing really well, but, um, I would also say. How can I sit with you while you write your promotion material? I know you're not doing that now, but you know what I mean. How can I sit with you while you do that? What would help?
Alex: I had a coach, Vikki that said to me, Alex, the problem is you say you're going to do all these things, but self awareness without accountability is just whinging. It broke my heart because I agreed. And it's what I always thought about myself anyway. And, and, and that's why we ask people if you're coaching anyone with ADHD or you think might have, please get ADHD informed, just understand what the, what we're going through because it's just, it's so embarrassing sometimes.
Vikki: And I've just remembered one more and then we're going to go on to what people can do for themselves. But the one more is help them remember what they have done.
Alex: Because they won't have a clue.
Vikki: I, I completely, you know, I genuinely tell people that I'm crap at finishing things that I never finished things. And it's like, I've published 50 odd articles. I've published a book. I've got to put, you know, I've, I've done my PhD. I've done all of these things. And I genuine, not so much now because I've coached on it and I'm much better at recognize and I have systems to help me see what I've done now. Um, but before I knew all this stuff, I would absolutely be fixated on the fact that I didn't do this, this, and this, and totally overlook the fact that I had done that, that, and that, which were actually really good and really, you know, really important.
Alex: So important. That's a really good one. Really good.
Vikki: So, these things people ask for their, from their universities, what can people listening do for themselves? Because I'm aware that some of this is a little bit of a depressing narrative, it's a little bit of a you're probably going to struggle and it's probably not going to be a good environment for you. Um, and here at the PhD Life Coach, we always like to focus on what things can we think and do differently to help it. Not saying that the environment isn't structurally against you, but within that context, what can we do to make things more enjoyable, less painful?
Alex: No, I think that's really good. Now, I wish I'd said something about the positivity right at the start that there are no, there is almost almost nothing we can't do. This narrative of, of don't ever say anything negative is a bit unfair because for example, it's literally illegal for me to be a commercial airline pilot because I have ADHD not allowed. So you can't say I can do what I want because I'm not allowed to. So there are, there are things we've got to but in general, in general, um, ADHD is really a sort of a question of ability. Well, what are you good at? And the evidence shows that if you avoid toxic positivity, that kind of, if you just got a planner, you'd be as good as me and then if you, if you eat turmeric, you'll cure your ADHD, all that bullshit. But instead of that, have a positive lens. So not dwelling and catastrophizing on the things you haven't done well, but thinking about the done list, exactly what you've just said, you're 50 odd papers, Vikki, that all the people you've helped, the things that you value. So it's starting to actually, you might need help to write down things you value because most of us, when we're asked what we like, we go, I do not know. What is the correct answer here? That's an issue, obviously. But really, yeah, having a positive lens about who you are and what you do, sense of humor, and someone to share the daft stuff with. Positive lens without moving into toxic positivity. Inspiration porn, we sometimes call it, is a really, really healthy approach. Body system works. If you've got ADHD traits and you find, oh, well, I have to get my mum over to help me tidy because I can't tidy. And then when you explore it, your mum's not doing anything. You just need someone there while you do it.
Vikki: I do that all the time. All the time. So sometimes I'll let you into a little secret. This podcast gets... processed on a Sunday night, ready to go out at 5 a. m. Monday morning. I'm getting a lot better at doing it earlier, but I do that and I don't beat myself up for it. Sometimes it happens. And when I do, I've got a little sofa in my office there. I make Andy play computer games there while I'm processing, not recording. I record in advance, but when I'm processing, because being in a room with somebody else, not being on my own makes it a billion times easier to get on with, and I can't put my finger on why, but it absolutely works.
Alex: It's the body system, and it, we think it's, uh, oxytocin. That seems to be some evidence that it's because humans are a gregarious predator. That's what we are, and the gregarious nature of us means that we get validation and motivation, dopamine, noradrenaline, serotonin, from the existence of people in our sphere. And, and that, and, and then the problem with ADH ADHD is what you want to do. I want to, I want to edit this podcast a week in advance. And what your, your brain will allow you to do is based on the emotional reward of doing it. So if you know you want to do it, but your brain says, yeah, but I could leave it, so I'm not gonna get as much dopamine from doing it, the movement won't happen. But if there's someone there, it's more likely to.
Vikki: Do you know what I've learned with that? That's so interesting, because I never thought about it like that. And what's so interesting is what's really helped for me. And it's, I was about to put the caveat, it sounds ridiculous. I shouldn't put that caveat. It just helps me. Um, is enormous amounts of self praise. So the way I get myself... to do things if there are things that seem a bit boring or especially if there are things that I'm feeling some shame around because I should have done them before, should in inverted commas, um, then I do enormous amounts of self praise and I do it out loud. So I'll be like, look at you doing your emails. You're so organized. Let's carry on. And it sounds like toxic positivity, but it's not because it's not saying if you do this one thing, you'll be better. It's saying. Check you out, you know, you're doing this and we're cleaning and all those sorts of things. Look at you perfect housewife. We're getting this all sorted. Lovely, lovely. I'm so proud. I've done this. And then afterwards as well, it's something that my husband's very good at doing is the, I'm so glad we got that job done. I'm so glad the kitchen's clean now. Isn't it nice that we've done that? I'm so pleased we did that. And he does it almost to a kind of like you really notice how much he does it. Yeah. Um, and it helps so much.
Alex: It's so good. And can I add a really wanky addition that you can try doing, which we know works, but I find it very difficult, which is speak about yourself positively when no one's listening in the third person. . There's evidence that that helps too. . And, and that celebrating those little wins without, without. And this is tempting without then going, I wish I could always do it though, because we can't is really important to not the positive lens and then stop. It doesn't have to be forever. It's okay. . Things work sometimes.
Vikki: And that's a comment that actually comes up quite a lot in the PhD coaching I do with people with ADHD and without to be honest, is people often say they haven't done enough work today. And one of the things I really like to do is ask them to define what they mean by enough, because if enough means absolutely everything I planned and you planned it in an unrealistic way, then that's a probably challenging version of enough.
Vikki: Anyway, one of the things we talk about is not planning your enough to be 100 percent of your best day, which is something I've seen, we've seen all PhD students, but especially people with ADHD do a lot. We have a day where we write 3000 words in one go without getting up and this was amazing or whatever. And then we beat ourselves up why we only wrote 200 words the following day. Not even at some unspecified day at the future, but like not recognizing that actually maybe yesterday was quite cognitively taxing and tiring and things. And we're like, no, if I could write 3000 yesterday, I can be at 18, 000 by the end of the week. Let's go. And I think that keeping that in your mind that we should have a kind of an in betweeny amount or at least recognize the, for those of you listening on the podcast I'm kind of waving my hands up and down like a bumpy graph. I sort of, some days you will do loads and other days you will do less and that's okay. That's a way of getting things done. Okay.
Alex: That emotional acceptance is key. What, what, what you've just said about that, I need to get that done. That's my main tip for self. Look, what you can do for yourself is to not give yourself unwinnable tasks, goals. If your job is to tidy your house, you will fail every day. Because it could always be tidier and who, why, why would you set yourself up for failure every day? If you give yourself a small goal, such as empty half of the dishwasher. If you empty all of the dishwasher, you have tidied your house and you've smashed your goal. And, and this, and it's true in your PhD as well, and in your academic career as well, that however small you think you've made your goal, you've probably combined three small goals in one. And one of them is an emotional blockage. If you're wondering why you're procrastinating, it's that there's one small thing. It's usually, I don't know what to do or who to ask. And so the goal becomes to find that out, not to achieve it in the first place. That's, that is the number one really rule for, for, for success in academia.
Vikki: I agree. One of the things we talk about in podcasting and coaching quite a bit is about being your own boss and essentially putting yourself into boss mode where you, your job is not to do any of the tasks, but to make it really easy for Vikki to do the tasks. If you see it, so you sort of lift yourself out of being the person who actually has to do it because most people with ADHD are able to tell somebody how they could organize themselves and stuff. It's, it, it doesn't seem, tell me if I'm wrong, it doesn't seem to be that we can't help others often, it's the, we then don't do it and myself and a lot of my clients, I found it really useful just to take that little bit of time and be like, okay, Vikki's feeling kind of confused right now, so let's just make a really specific list of, even if you're going to do a big clean. What are the 10 tasks you're going to do and exactly where the things are you need to do them? And what order are you going to do them in so that you can kind of go, okay. I'm going to follow this through. And that seems to help that kind of, I should do this, no I shouldn't, I should do that kind of feeling.
Alex: That first task as well, in my experience, is always three tasks and we haven't realised. Yes. It happens every time.
Vikki: I think that's something you practice as well. I see a lot of this sort of self support stuff, for me at least, to be a skill as well that I'm kind of learning what helps me, and sometimes I try things that I thought would help and they don't. I think buying new planners, um, and other times I try things and it's like, okay, that helps. And the other thing you mentioned about tips and hacks sort of stopping working. The other thing I've massively accepted recently is that I'm never going to come up with a system that works for me that I will just do forever. And so actually, if I can come up with an approach that helps me for the next month, wicked, let's do that. And as and when it's not working anymore, we can find another one, that's okay. It just maybe needs to not be spending two weeks designing your perfect Notion planner but accepting that you will change the way you like doing things and that's okay, I think can really help too.
Alex: It really is. I have them on rotation. I have about 50 different things. I have them all. When they stop working, I don't know why they have. I'm really disappointed in myself. And, and I have to remind myself yet again, every tip and life hack and script for my own ADHD either works once for a reason, for a whole season, or rarely forever. And, and that's okay.
Vikki: For sure. Do you have any rules of thumb for those things though? Where, you know, there's different systems, there's different approaches that work at different times, but they always need to be this.
Alex: Um, it's, it's retrospective, so I'm always surprised what works and what doesn't, because I think it's... So, one thing that always works for me is not having drawers. Okay. Because if I can't see it, there's a thing that babies under six months have called object impermanence, and they can't, if you hide the rattle or the keys from behind your back, they literally don't believe this exists. And psychologists all tell you that that doesn't happen in adults. I swear it does in me. I, out of sight, out of mind is a disease and it's a big part for a lot of ADHD. And so I don't have things in drawers. Everything is clear boxes or open. And it doesn't look as nice. I try and have pretty clear boxes and pretty things, just so it's a bit nicer. Um, that, that's fundamental. Otherwise it's gone. I'll just buy another one.
Vikki: See, that's so fascinating. You talking about how things are different for different people. Yeah. I would be utterly overwhelmed. If I could see everything, in my head, that's a to do list. I can see all of it. So for me, I find it really useful to be able to put things away and have the one job that I need to do today on my desk. So we always, you know, if there's a letter that needs posting, it's out on the side. If there's, you know, that sort of thing. So we leave out the thing we need to do and everything else goes away so that I can see this is me and that envelope and I've got to put it in a postbox. That's the only thing I can see. That's the only thing I'm going to do. And that really helps.
Alex: It's interesting. So how do you remember? So if there's something you haven't used for a couple of months and you need it, how do you know where it is?
Vikki: I've got better and better. So I have been gradually decluttering.
Alex: You're a minimalist. That's what you are. Is that what you are? Is that how that works?
Vikki: Yeah, that's so I've, I mean, my husband would laugh if he, you called me a minimalist. I'm definitely not a minimalist, but I probably own about 30 percent of what I owned in 2015, something like that. Um, and that's what's helped is, and I'm not quite there, this is a work in progress, but things work best where everything I own is in a specific place that makes sense and is labeled in some way. So bulbs go in that cupboard in that box up there, batteries go in that cupboard in that box up there. And at least then if things get messy, and things do get messy, you know, I can see four Diet Coke cans as I speak, um, I know where they have to go. Mostly Andy gets rid of them for me, which is also a wonderful thing.
Alex: Everything in its place is really important. Oh, I'll tell you one thing that works for me as well. Do not share. If it's organisational stuff you need on the daily, don't share. Because then the responsibility is out of your hands and therefore it's not yours. So that's really cool.
Vikki: Andy puts everything away, but I have a magic headphone case now where my earbuds reappear in them. No. It reappears in the case every day. I have no idea how it happens. I do know it's because Andy puts them back for me whenever he finds them. He puts them back, it's wonderful. Um, but yeah, my, my go to previously was more storage. That if I could find the right storage solutions and the right labelling solutions, then everything would be fine. And the answer was less stuff. 100 percent less stuff.
Alex: All of these things we're giving are fun and probably useful for some people tips. The main thing I think, particularly in academia, is that it is about emotional acceptance.
Vikki: Yes.
Alex: Have you ever heard that bullshit that you can't control what people do to you, but you can control your reaction? No, you can't. You can control your interpretation of how your emotions were afterwards, but you can't control them themselves. And it's that really, that emotional interpretation. Yes, I reacted poorly, darling, but it was because it was, it was, it was my emotional overreaction. You didn't do anything wrong is an interpretation. And that's all I can do. Because I am going to make those mistakes again and again.
Vikki: I love that. So we talk about the self coaching model where you have the circumstance, the facts of the situation, the thought about them, the feelings you have, the actions, and then the results. And lots of people think that what that means is the circumstance has to be, you know, um, my wife says X and your thought is, oh, she probably doesn't mean anything bad by that. Duh duh duh. And so your feeling is calm and then duh duh duh. And there were some things where that's useful because sometimes our thoughts can really fuel if when we're going over and over them after the time we can really fuel negative feelings that make it difficult to take the actions we want. But one of the things we can do with that model is we can put, I snapped at my partner in the circumstance line, and we can then choose what we think about it, which is, I think, what you're talking about. And I think what a lot of people with ADHD do is they put in the thought line, um, I'm a terrible person. She probably hates me and is going to leave me and those sorts of things. Oh, absolutely. Whereas if we can put in the thought line, yeah, you know, I snapped and that wasn't my best moment ever. Kind of understand why I'll talk to her about it or whatever. You can kind of have that sort of. You can interpret your reaction. So we don't have to be perfect in the moment, but we can help so much in how we look back and judge our behaviours and things.
Andy: It's all emotional, really. So if you look at the diagnostic criteria of ADHD, there's loads of them, but the only thing that all ADHD people have, really, is emotional dysregulation. That's what they sometimes call an inappropriate emotional response to stimulus. And it doesn't just mean overreaction. Like, the way I once got with my now ex wife about some potatoes she cooked, which wasn't my best moment. But it could also be the fact that I don't grieve properly is an under emotional and inappropriate, societally, or to me, inappropriate emotional response. And so if you have emotional dysregulation, it doesn't just come with ADHD, it can be really damaging in your career as well, and your PhD, because if your supervisor says, you know, this chapter's really great, but I think probably this bit needs changing, and you hear, everything's shit, you're a terrible person, I despise you, like I, I would, and then my reaction is negative. If I can't accept that and tolerate that within myself and then go back and say, oh hi, I had an emotional reaction there, you know, that, actually, I don't, I don't think it's because of this neurodevelopmental disorder, it makes it a lot easier for me to have that conversation with people because I'm always going to have it. I'm always going to have ADHD. It's incurable, unfortunately. It is treatable. And so that is exactly what you say. It's the interpretation of that emotion.
Vikki: Definitely, definitely. And that acceptance. It's just huge. You know, I, I think now back to I, I'm, I feel inside my head, almost irrecognizable to how I felt at some of the hardest parts of my academic career. And I don't think I forget things less now and I don't think I do ADHD things less now, but just not beating myself up about them, uh, just means that you, it's much less painful. It means, ironically, it means that you sort of sort them out a bit quicker. Like, you know, in your situation, the more you can not judge the fact that you had that explosive response, the easier it is to then go and talk to the supervisor and be like, yeah, not my finest hour. Sorry about that. Um. It just, so sometimes people think, you know, Oh, if I just accept this, then I'm going to be useless forever in, in my old thoughts, words, but actually often when you accept this just is how you, how you are. It's so much easier to accept scaffolding around yourself to like to the support networks around yourself, and to just not make it any more painful than it needs to be.
Alex: Stress exacerbates ADHD symptoms, even if the stress is because of the ADHD symptoms. So it is, it literally reduces your ADHD symptoms, not to zero, sadly. Oh, I'd be delighted.
Vikki: And I think that the final thing with that is I've talked before in this podcast about the importance of having a team around you and how that can be a whole variety of different types of people. And so I'd really encourage people with ADHD to seek any professional support that they think would be useful to help them, but also don't underestimate the power of other types of team around you, having other people who have ADHD, who you can swap silly stories with having other people who remind you. I used to get really cross. My mom used to remind me of birthdays and stuff. And I used to take it as a judgment that she thought I was useless and a baby and I just still needed my mom's support and whatever. Now I love it. I'm so grateful. And it's part of my team that she will say have you checked your car's MOT? I feel like it was sort of this time of year last year. And I love it. And they're amazing. And when you, when you feel less shame, it's easier to have that around you because I now just say thank you and check where my MOT is rather than snapping at her for treating me like a baby. Um, so building that team around you of specialist and non specialist people, but who make you feel good and who love you the way you are, who don't tell you that you should be less or should be quieter or should be more focused or any of those things is, I think is probably one of the biggest things you can do to help yourself.
Alex: It really is. That would be my advice to help students as well. If universities really wanted to help students, they would help neurodivergent staff first with meaningful measures because we're masking and we're there and it comes at a high cost and if we could feel open then it would help the students immeasurably by definition.
Vikki: Massively. Now I'm very proud of us because those who are listening don't know but we said that we were going to finish recording on the hour. It is two minutes past the hour and for us that is amazing. I'm very proud. So I am going to compliment us for that and draw it to a close there. Alex, if people want to hear more from you, which I'm sure they do. And if they want to know why that man's face is crossed out behind you, if they're watching on YouTube.
Alex: And there's a, there's a third person I've crossed out here.
Vikki: Tell people where they can find out more from you.
Alex: So we have a podcast called the ADHD adults, which you can find in all the places you find podcasts, Spotify. I have to read out of Spotify adverts, Vicky, it's mortifying. Perfect. And, uh, we do evidence based science, which is like, some people say, why is there like three minutes of evidence based science and 50 minutes of you two being arses? And Sam as well now is one of our, the three of us are co hosts, Mrs ADHD. And it's because we like messing about, but you can just listen to the first bit if you want the science and we choose a topic and talk about research and try and make it a bit more interesting. Uh, yeah, uh, we've, we've just taken a month off for ADHD awareness month, accidentally, which is hilarious and properly on brand coming back on November the 6th um, and if you need any help or support or resources and questionnaires, all the free things, if you have a look on the website, ADHDadult. uk, that's the home of our charity.
Vikki: And you sometimes have live shows? I don't know if you...
Alex: I do, yeah. I do, um, Seed Talks and things and coaching, but I don't... Yeah, if you go onto the Seed Talks website, you can have a look at that. I don't... God knows. I'm not very good at this, Vikki.
Vikki: So keep an eye... I'll do his promo bit for him. Um, he does, uh, live shows in comedy clubs and things like that. So keep an eye out for those happening in the future and he does some one to one coaching as well, although I know you're very busy so, you may not have space for clients at the moment, but people can be aware that you do have those sorts of services and training as well. So if you think your university or staff would benefit from some ADHD specific training, you can put them in touch with Alex as well. Is that everything? I think that's most things.
Alex: It is.
Vikki: Perfect. Thank you so much for coming, Alex. I really appreciate it. And it's fantastic to catch up. Thank you everyone for listening and see you next week.