Do you hear the word networking and just think that this is the most awful thing ever, or that you're really bad at it, or that you shouldn't have to do it, or it's really hard, or it's not the right time? If so, you are going to love this episode because we're going to tell you all the reasons you're wrong. I have a guest with me, Dr Jen Polk, and we are going to be talking all things networking.
Vikki: Hello and welcome to Episode nine of season 2 of the PhD Life Coach and I have another guest with me this week. I am super excited to welcome Jen Polk. And we are going to be talking about networking. So hi, Jen.
Jen: Hello! Happy to be here. Love this topic. It's a juicy one.
Vikki: It really is. And I just love how we came to be talking about this. I was planning to write a podcast about this myself because it's something that I've coached on a lot recently and I was, I'd sat down to do it and I was slightly procrastinating on Twitter as I do. And noticed you talking about networking and the importance of networking in the work that you do and. We just got talking from there. So it was, I just thought it was a wonderful example of networking that's actually led to us doing this. And I feel like you have so much to offer PhD students in terms of why networking is so important and how we can make it less painful. So maybe tell people a little bit. Yeah, no pressure at all. But maybe tell people a little bit about what you do.
Jen: Thanks. Yeah. So I'm Jen, you know, call me Jen. Dr. Polk is also correct, but Jen is totally fine and my, my clients are underappreciated, let's say professors, postdocs and other PhDs who are so over compromising their values and priorities, chasing prestige and a paycheck. And I helped them get crystal clear on what they want and where they want it and who they want it with, et cetera, so that they can go and make that impact in the world that they are best placed to do. Uh, so that's a bit about my why. Thank you.
Vikki: I love that. I love that. And obviously networking is such an important part of that. But in both of the work we do, we hear kind of arguments against it from people, reasons why they don't like it, reasons why they think they shouldn't have to do it, or reasons why they think they can't do it. And so what we decided we wanted to do today was to actually just work through a bunch of reasons that real clients have given us about why they find networking difficult and kind of help pick them apart a little bit.
Jen: Put a little skewer in each one of those, maybe.
Vikki: Sure. We're going to do it with compassion. We get it. This isn't necessarily something that everyone, in fact, it's not something that everyone just walks into and goes, Oh, okay. I know how to do this then, and so when we're putting skewers in these reasons, we understand why they feel really true at the moment. We understand why this feels like an indisputable thing about networking. But at the same time, we're going to spend the next sort of half hour trying to encourage you to see maybe some other views on this and how you can make it a little bit easier. So I have nine at the moment that you and I came up with before. Um, as my listeners know. We might end up with more by the end, who knows, we'll make it up as we go along. But we've got nine to start with. And the first one is my favorite, which is that networking is slimy. It's people who are out to get something sort of being disingenuous and sucking up to the right people and not bothering with people they can't get something from. So I'd love to hear your perspective on this one.
Jen: Totally. It's like, it's like people say to me, it's totally transactional. Like it's totally fake. And you know, when I, when I talk about this in the most recent workshop I did, I had the, you know, a stock image of a white man in a suit shaking hands with another white man in a suit, like nothing against those folks, but you know what I'm saying? Right? Like it, it doesn't feel authentic. Uh, it's not about community building and people. So let me just say right off the bat is that kind of networking is totally ineffective. So obviously we don't promote that kind of networking because it just doesn't work.
Vikki: And I think that's so important because not only does it mean you don't have to be like that, and networking doesn't have to be driven in those ways, but it also means it probably doesn't work that well, even if you are trying that.
Jen: Yeah, like, like, forget that. Like, that's not what we're talking about, right? Like, eh, next. Right?
Vikki: So, to follow that up, you mentioned community building there, though. So, tell me a little bit more about why framing it like that helps.
Jen: Yeah, because that's really what we're talking about here, is building a community around yourself that will challenge you and champion you right so that you can learn from people, that you can then teach them you can be supportive of other people like this. It's a it's people, right? It's about people. It's not a transaction and it is a bit of a longer term. Investment, to use that term, um, but it's, it's like making friends. These friends just happen to be people who are professionals in a space that you want to get into. So here's a definition that I like to use for networking, right? So in contrast to this image of people often have of like, you know, white men in suits, like throwing business cards at each other. Actually, networking is any activity that puts you in meaningful conversation with people in a professional space that you're in or you want to enter. So it's any activity that puts you in meaningful engagement. So it can be, you know, one on one, you know, in person, but it can also be like your LinkedIn comment sections or sending emails or Twitter, right? For Vikki and I's example from earlier. So like just expand what you think of as networking. And the funny thing is when you do that, you'll realize, Oh, I do that.
Vikki: Yeah, for sure. And I love what you said there about remembering that this is about supporting others as well, because I think we often, especially at the beginning of our careers, think about networking as we're the ones that sort of need to get something.And so we're inherently a bit in debt, because we're kind of, you know, trying to put people out to help us out and things. And I love the idea that when you switch it to thinking about community building, that you're offering something too. You're supporting these people. You're shouting these people out. I mean, I'm seeing it already in my business that PhD students that I work with in my coaching programs, they do me little shout outs on Twitter. And so they're, you know, they're networking with me. I'm networking with them, but they're helping me in my business. It's not just that I help them with my coaching. They tell people about it and like, Oh yes, I recommend this. Why don't you do her workshop and those sorts of things. So I think, I love that idea that we're, we're giving as well as kind of getting something from these, these transactions.
Jen: Yeah, absolutely. It's really valuable work to connect people with other people. Right. And that is something that, that you can offer.
Vikki: Well, my second one is actually a little bit wide ranging because it's, I am X, therefore I can't network. So things we, I am, um, I'm introverted, therefore I can't network. I am very shy. I have social anxiety, so I can't network. I'm disabled so I can't go places and network. All of these sorts of things. And one things we talked about before this episode started, we want to make really clear to the listeners that we do understand that there are structural things in society that make environments more or less conducive to networking for different sections of society. And so any individual advice we give now is going to be in the context that academia needs to do better. Society needs to do better. We need to think about how we set up these spaces so that everybody feels included. But obviously as individual academics and individual PhD students, we do also need to think about how can we stop that preventing us from engaging in networking.
Jen: Yeah, because you gotta like, you gotta go first. Right. And then you can help other people. You know what I'm trying to say?
Vikki: Yeah, sure. And it's not, it's not even that people have to like, you know, get through the glass ceiling and sort of fight their way. But we at least want you guys to see that it's not something that's wrong with you. If you find it hard because you're introverted or because you have anxiety or any of these other things, that doesn't mean you can't do it and it doesn't mean you're doing something wrong. But it does mean that we can perhaps reframe the way we're thinking about it so that we can find ways that work for us.
Jen: A big thing in my work, and this is something I want for all my clients, and you know, it's just how I do everything, is draw on your own strengths. Whatever you do, employ your own strengths. And if it is not a strength of yours to do a thing. Okay, you don't have to do it. So I go back to the definition of networking I gave like a couple minutes ago, is any activity, right? Where that puts you in meaningful conversation with other people and you get to decide what activities work for you. So for example, like me and Vikki. You know, in the last month, it was Twitter was a meaningful activity, and then we both got together on zoom, right? This is just not how other people are doing it. And it's okay. So it's whatever, you know, whoever you are, and whatever your strengths are lean into that, forget what other people are doing, because their advice might be good advice, but it doesn't mean that it's the right advice for you. You don't, let me put it in this way. Like you don't have to fit yourself into like little boxes created for people that aren't you. No, you get to show up in the world as yourself and invite other people to join you.
Vikki: I love that. And I think what so many people do is they kind of, they put networking in a box and say, that's not something I can do. And I think what we're encouraging here really is for people to kind of break that box apart and say, I don't do those bits, but I can do these bits and these ones really work for me. And one of the things I see, I mean, one of the things we talked about a little bit is how I'm probably at one end of the extroversion scale and you're at the other end of the introversion scale.
And one of the things I've noticed with both myself and fellow extroverts is being extroverted and talking to people a lot doesn't necessarily make lots of meaningful connections that last. It's something I've got better at over the years, but there certainly was a time when I would talk at people and think that we'd had a wonderful conversation and come away realizing that I had learned absolutely nothing and I probably wouldn't see that person again. So. There's space for everyone in, these sorts of activities.
Jen: Yeah, absolutely. And so shout out to any other introverts here, cause that is me. I spend like 99 percent of my time by myself, like physically by myself, but I am totally community minding, right? Like that's important to me. Uh, so if anyone is ever like, I can't network cause I'm introvert, I'm going to be the annoying person popping up being like, well, actually.
Vikki: Well, you've mentioned Twitter,, so what are other things that have worked for you?
Jen: So so me personally like I am not socially anxious and I'm not shy. I used to be shy when I was a kid and I still have moments of that. So, you know, I acknowledge right that that introversion is very true for me. But some of the others I don't I don't have a big challenge with, um, so what does work for me really well is online engagement because I can be physically in my own space at home with the temperature and how I like it as much water as I can drink in the bathroom right behind me anyways. And then I can be in control of those elements that are important to me and I really like social media. And so, like, Twitter, it's not that Twitter is like the ultimate place for academics to network because it increasingly is not, but it's that it was a strength of mine was that kind of text based engagement. And so I would, you know, leaned on that strength and did a lot of great networking on Twitter. You know, part of networking for me is putting content out into the world, is sharing my own thoughts, uh, out into the world in a little bit of a public way. So LinkedIn, Twitter, blogging, you know, back when, you know, we more, we did that a few years ago. Um, and then other people would come to me. So it wasn't always that I needed to then go out and like actively try and get in touch with other people. They would come to me, right? So I think that is a really nifty trick for folks who, you know, see, see themselves in what I'm describing, right? Is that you can actually put yourself out there in a way that invites other people to want to network with you. And that's really cool.
Vikki: Definitely. I love that. And I love this idea of playing to your strengths, you know, um, one of the things I think that really works. I'm really good at kind of knowing, knowing what lots of different people from lots of different parts of sectors. So my friends are very much not just in academia. They're across a whole variety of different things. And I'm quite good at kind of going, Oh, you need to talk to so and so. I mean, you've already done that to me today as well. So I know that's a strength of yours, recommending a coach that I should speak to. But you know, that kind of seeing ways that people could work together that they maybe hadn't thought of before is something that I realized that I could do but not everybody does. And I also have a healthy amount of cheek, I think it's fair to say, and a healthy disregard for hierarchy. Um, and so I'm very happy to contact people that are much more senior than me and just be like, Hello, we should do this. I've had an idea. And so as I realized that that was a strength and not something that everybody felt comfortable doing, I've tried to lean into that too and to sort of be like, okay, actually, I can do this. These, these are things that are actually useful. This is something that you're not uniquely good at, but is a. is a strength of yours and I think that really helps.
Jen: Totally. I mean, there's no point in like trying to be somebody else when, you know, you're in a professional space, whatever that means cause then, like, what's the purpose here? Like, you know, the point is for you to have success on your own terms. So as much as possible, put yourself out there on your own terms. I love that. You know. Yeah, caveats, obviously, but, like, generally speaking, right?
Vikki: Yeah, and, I mean, one caveat I think I would add is... It's okay if you feel like that's not okay in your setting. So I know that there are people who come from particular cultures or have particular approaches where maybe they've had a lot of feedback that their way of doing it isn't the way that's expected in their setting and things. And so I think all of these things are within the context that that that might be challenging in some environments, but figuring out where that sort of intersection between what your group that you're in at the moment will accept and what your strengths are and where you feel good, finding the bit that overlaps in all of that, um, so that you can be yourself in a way that feels safe and okay within your working environment, within your profession, seems to me like a good way forward.Amazing. So number three, I love number three. Academics shouldn't have to network because their work should stand for itself.
Jen: I don't know if folks can see me because I'm making faces here.
Vikki: I'll have this on YouTube as well as on podcast. So if you're watching on YouTube, you can see the face that Jen's pulling right now. If not, we kind of got hands on hips and a shaky head.
Jen: Shaking my head. I'm shaking my head. Right. I mean, what the heck, right? Like, we just know that's not true. Like, come on, people, right? Like, my work speaks for itself. Academia is a meritocracy, right? If I do good work, people will be drawn to me. Like, I know we like to believe that, but let's be serious about what is actually happening in academia. I mean, it's not that none of that is happening, but you gotta, you gotta advocate for yourself. You gotta put yourself out there, um, because it doesn't really happen like magic if you don't. I'm not blaming any individuals for this, but academic culture tells us that. And it is just not true,
Vikki: For sure. And, and it's almost inevitable that it's not true. There's unbelievable graphs, I'm sure you've seen them, of numbers of academic papers published each year. And the amount it's increased since, like, the 60s and 70s is just absolutely unbelievable so it's not even that, you know, if academia was a better place, then it could be a meritocracy and we'd have some way of judging it that meant you didn't have to share it like this, because there's just too much of it, You just can't keep track of a literature base anymore. And so, making sure that your work Is being seen is so important. And that's one of the things I've worked on with my clients, to be honest, is thinking about it, not as putting yourself out there, but thinking about it, putting your work out there. Because when people feel uncomfortable doing stuff to raise my profile, as it were. A way around that, like, do you think your work's important? Do you think people deserve to know about your research? Okay, let's do that. You don't have to be all like, hey, I won an award. I'm pleased to announce, like they do on LinkedIn all the time. You know, you don't have to do that stuff, but you can do, look at this cool thing I found out. This could help people. This could interest people.
Jen: Yeah, I love that, right? I love that because, of course, you are the person that did the work, right? So you're in there, but it's not about, like, self promotion. I mean, yes, it is, but like, it's not, it's not because you're promoting your own self. It's because why are we here? We are here to make the world better. And the tools that we choose to do that with are, you know, higher, advanced degrees, higher education, you know, academic disciplines, publishing, whatever, whatever. Right. And so like if you put something out into the world, part of why you're doing that is so that we can make this better.
Vikki: As you were talking, you made me think as well, something that I hadn't really thought about for a while, which is that when you put yourself out there, you're also showing other people that it's possible. So, you know, I'm not. a minority in the area that I was a sports scientist by training. We're actually relatively 50 50 gender split. I'm white. I was first generation to go to university, but beyond that, I don't have any particular characteristics that make me a minority. But what I did do was choose to promote up a teaching focus route in the end. So instead of getting to professor on research, I got to professor on a teaching focus contract. And that was something that's. It's relatively unusual in the UK. I think it's very unusual in the U S and quite a few other countries, and one of the reasons I kept sharing what I was doing and the things I was doing that were getting me promoted was so that people could see that you could specialize in teaching leadership and still make full professor, still get to like the highest qualifications and get to the highest promotions because a lot of people don't believe it's possible. And I think for everybody else who has, you know, characteristics that mean that maybe it's more unusual for people who look like you or people who are like you to reach those levels, I think putting yourself out there shows people that it can be done.
Jen: This is like such a fire, uh, reframe of self promotion as actually promotion of other people like you.
Vikki: I think all of these things can just be things that, where we can just knock the edges off some of this, academics shouldn't have to. No, okay, if you believe that. But do you believe that people like you should be able to see people who are a few years ahead of them doing well? Well, if you believe that, then you need to be doing that for the people that are a few years behind you, because a few years ago, you wanted to see someone like you. So where are you? Okay. Number four, I don't know anyone, so I can't network.
Jen: I know. I know. Okay. So here, let me acknowledge that some of the folks listening might be international folks, maybe like you've just landed in a brand new country and a totally different continent. Right? And, and so I hear people when they say this, I don't know anybody. Other people when they say this to me, and I've heard it a lot, what they have in mind is that they only know academics. Like, I only know academics, right? I only know my, you know, my professors, you know, the other grad students. I don't know anybody else. And. Okay. Well, let's assume, let's assume that you don't know anybody. Yeah. Okay. Let's start with your word. Sure. Let's let's start there. Uh, the people that you do know that you have just met the day before in your department, other academics, these folks have international often networks of their own, so you don't have to know everybody firsthand. You can start with the people that you do know, and you can start with one person that you know, and ask them who else they know. The other thing is that your network is a lot bigger. So, so that was like, okay, I hear you. And here's the, but you're wrong. Your network is actually bigger than you think it is because it's anyone that you've ever interacted with, even if they don't currently remember who you are. So let me give, let me give practical examples of this and let me draw on my own personal experience, like my own life years ago. So the, some of the folks that I did informational interviews with, so informational interviews is a form of networking and the very first informational interviews that I did uh, after my PhD, there was a woman whose blog posts that I read online and I looked her up and she was in Toronto and had a humanities PhD just like me. Right. So I was like, we are not currently connected, but we got a couple of similar, you know, things. And I'm just going to send that email and hope for the best. Yes, we met, we talked. Another person that I did an informational interview with was somebody who, I read his bio on a company website. I saw a job ad in that company. I read the bios of the people who worked at that company and ding, ding, ding. This senior vice president, right? Bucket Sweat, had a PhD from my same department, you know, from years and years ago, but it was like, Oh, dang, right? Send an email. Hope for the best. We met for coffee and we bonded over the slog of dissertating, right? Like people are people are people. The third person, right? Is I was telling friends of mine. So friends that, you know, maybe weren't in academia had no connection. Someone I know from the local independent music scene in Toronto. This is totally unrelated to my academic work was like, actually, an old high school friend of mine works at York doing something like this. I let me let me figure out what the heck that's about. And. It wasn't like a usual informational interview because me and my friend and this guy and his wife all went for pizza and beer. Right. And that was awesome. So, you know, I give these like specific examples to say, like, actually, your network is bigger than you think. And it can be bigger than you think. And you can reach out to folks because you do have ways of connecting with them. That was a big, long speech.
Vikki: No, I love that. And just while we're on it, because you've mentioned informational interviews, and I know a lot of people were interested in that, what do you do in them?
Jen: Yeah. So I love, so informational interviews are like amazing and everybody should do more of them, including me. So informational interviews, they are a form of networking, but what's really cool about them, and I think this is, this reframe helps people, is that when you do an informational interview, you're the one asking the questions. So it might feel a little more comfy, right? Because you can sort of get prepared in advance and go with a list of questions and look people up. And then you're not the one on the hot seat. They are. Informational interviews are, are a form of networking, as I said, but they're about learning. They are a way for you to learn about jobs and career paths and companies and fields of work, etc. Uh, it, they are just an amazing resource.
Vikki: And what I love about them, so I've done them myself and I've been on the receiving end of them as well. And what I love about them is people are really surprisingly willing to do them. There are some people who maybe don't have time and all of those things or say they don't have time. But I've always been really surprised by how willing people are to do it. And I think, to be honest, it's just a bit flattering. You know, when I've had people contact me about things, it is that sort of like, Oh, You want to be doing what I'm doing. That's quite cool. Of course. Come on in. I'll talk to you. and I think people are really willing to give their time in those sorts of ways, if you're very clear that you're not expecting anything from them, other than for you to pick their brain a bit and understand. If you use informational interviewing as a way to sneakily ask for a job or something, then it all starts getting a bit grubby. But if you make really clear upfront, I'm just really interested in what you do and want to know more about it, would it be okay? People love to tell their stories. They love to sort of, it's an opportunity for reflection really as well, isn't it? I've sometimes come out of informational interviews where I've done most of the talking because they've been asking me questions, but thinking I hadn't really thought about it like that until they asked me. So yeah, I think they can be a real win for, for lots of people.
Jen: Absolutely,
Vikki: okay, right, next one. I've got nothing to contribute.
Jen: I mean, we've already talked about that a little bit, right? The value of being a connector, right? So the more people that you talk with and, and, and remember that if you're talking to somebody whose work is tangentially related to your academic expertise, but, you know, isn't currently an academic, you might have a lot of really amazing, uh, academic know- how, um, to recommend them, right? So like that's a specific example, but also what Vikki just said, the people love talking about themselves and they also love giving advice. Like, it's fun for them, right? They enjoy their reflection piece. So that is something that you are, uh, facilitating, like that's an offer that you're making. So you totally have things to offer. And okay, I'll say one more thing is that there is value for those other folks in them getting to know you, even if you can't help them beyond the ways I just mentioned right now is that you're in their network and it's useful for them to know like emerging scholars or like, you know, emerging professionals, whatever it is, because they might be in a position to recommend you for things. And if that works out, that makes them look good, right? Like it's, it's just like, it's all good stuff. There's nothing to lose. You know, the worst that ever happens is like 20 minutes, you're never getting back. But like, that's it, right?
Vikki: Yeah, no, I agree. I think people underestimate how much just asking questions makes you a really, like, nice person to have a conversation with.
Jen: And they think you're a genius, right? If you ask these questions.
Vikki: Yeah. And I think, I love your point that people take for granted their knowledge. I think, especially if you're in a, so I was in a really multidisciplinary department. And so it was always. We were always hearing things that were very different, but I think especially if you work in a discipline that's quite a sort of mono discipline and you stay within that area, you do take for granted because everybody around you knows the stuff you know, so it's not interesting anymore. One of my favorite things to do when I do my PhD workshops is I always ask people at the beginning to tell me not what department they're in, I don't care what department they're in, but to tell me what they're researching. And the stuff that people come up with, it's just fascinating. I want to read all of them, seriously. They just are researching the most amazing things and they utterly take it for granted because they're in it all day, every day. And sometimes all it takes is me going, Oh my God, that sounds amazing. They're like, actually it is really important. And like, yeah, people, people think this is interesting. Okay. I've got nothing to gain from networking at the moment. I'm not looking for a job.
Jen: Yeah, right. Cause this is, so this is aimed at the folks are like, okay, networking is for job seekers and like, cool. I'm with you. I got it. But I'm not job seeking right now, or like, I just got a new job. It's not for me. Okay. So first off, like informational interviews is about learning, right? So as Vikki said, it's not like, hi, let's do an informational interview. And by the way, can you hire me? Like, no, no, no, I mean, if they might say, Hey, can I hire you? Like, okay, that's the dream situation. Um, so, so learning is great. Right. And learning when you're already have a job, like, that's amazing because then any kind of pressure that you might feel about getting a job is just not even there anymore. Right? So it can sometimes make this even easier to network when you already have a job because you're doing your future self a real solid, and if you're in a position where you can help other people. I Know that nobody has any time, but like, that's just so amazing. Right?
Vikki: Okay, well, let's address that. I don't have time.
Jen: Yeah, you know, I hear you and I would say that... Okay, so let me, let me say specifically for job seekers, right? So I switched gears a little bit. I hear this a lot from folks that are like, I'm spending all my time applying for jobs. I don't have time to network. And I acknowledge that networking is a bit of a longer term thing, like I said at the beginning. Um, it's it's networking doesn't directly usually it doesn't directly lead to a job in that way. But it just gives you so much rich, valuable information, insights, advice, perspectives that you just can't get, uh, you know, from reading the internet or certainly from reading job ads, which are like a specific genre of text anyways, right? Like there's just so much in there that you miss out. You miss out when you don't network. You miss out on learning. You miss out on, like, the enjoyment, right? Because, like, being in community with other people is often something that you don't get when you're a job seeker, when you're feeling really isolated. So, like, this is a way of not being, like, super isolated, and you also open yourself to opportunities for people to say, like, Oh, actually! You should apply for this job or you should have talked to that other person and it's just it's it's really I know it's like counterintuitive right for me but I'm often on the on the side of stop applying to so many jobs and start talking to more people because the applications that you do submit are going to be more on point. They're going to be more compelling. They're going to be more tailored because you will know what people care about in this industry because you will have just talked to a handful of them who will have told you so you can really address the concerns of hiring managers, etc.
Vikki: It reminded me of it. So I have a course I've run twice this week actually called, what to do when you've got too much to do. And one of the things that we talk about in that is how the first step is accepting there are too many things. You don't have enough time to do them all. And that doesn't have to mean anything about you and your prospects and your abilities or any of those things. And actually most of the pain comes from the fact that we should, we tell ourselves we should be able to do all this stuff. And I think once you accept there isn't enough time and you can't do all the things. Then you get to ask yourself questions about what's valuable to you and what you want to put your time into. And that's where something like networking, I think, becomes something that becomes a higher priority to fit in because it's something that benefits future you, it's something that gives you energy in the moment. As well, that's something I'm really noticing at the moment. So I'm similar to you. I work on my own most of the time. And one of the things I've made a real effort with over the last couple of months is the networking, is getting to know more people and speaking with them. And as much as I've learned stuff from everybody, which has been amazing, and we've done cool things like this, but the thing I've noticed more than anything is the energy that you get from just connecting with people who are doing similar things to you. And I know part of that's my extroversion and all of that, but that sort of, that feeling that you're in it with other people is something that can sustain you way beyond that 30 minutes that you spent on Zoom with someone.
Jen: Yeah. For me, like as an introvert. I'm sort of energized briefly and then I need a nap, but character strengths of mine include love of learning, curiosity, perspective taking, right? And all of those are strengths that I can use that I show up when I do informational interviews and networking. So using your strengths, like. That is happy making as a person, right? So there you go.
Vikki: Definitely. And I think it reminds you of why you're doing things too. I think the nature of these sorts of conversations is that they're usually a little bit bigger picture. They're usually a bit more speculative. And sometimes I think, especially in those PhD years, you can get really niched down to that one tiny molecule that you care about, or that one tiny policy document that you're looking at or whatever it is. And I think networking is a way of kind of bringing yourself back up and connecting what you're doing back into other things. I remember as a scientist being really frustrated that I couldn't do more work than I was doing because there were so many questions I wanted to answer and going to conferences and meeting people gave me a real sense of being a tiny cog, but part of something that was exploring some really big and interesting questions and I think that can be really energizing. So whilst it takes time, it can give time in the, in the sense of giving you the energy to do the other things that you want to do. Okay. I don't know how is my eighth reason that I hear, I don't know what to do. One example, what did you, those emails, when you wrote to people asking for informational interviews, what did you say?
Jen: Yeah. Okay. So hot tip, you know, use ChatGPT, like I will tell you, I'm going to give you a template right now live, but ChatGPT is a little wordy, so note that, but this is the kind of, this is the kind of scenario where ChatGPT or like, you know, other AI tools like that are your friend, right? If you're ever stuck on like, how do I write an email like this, use ChatGPT. Okay. So let me tell you let me tell you so you want to do an informational interview, right? So I specifically informational interview. Okay subject line Can I talk with you about your career or just informational interview, right? Like like let's not beat around the bush. Dear Peter My name is Jen I'm writing to ask, uh, if we can have a conversation so I can learn more about your career path.
We, we met a few years back, uh, at a dinner at blah, blah, blah, right? So you're making, you're sort of being clear from the beginning what you want. Second sentence. Who you are and what connection you have, like, I also have a PhD from your department or Marjorie recommended I connect with you, et cetera. Then you give them a sense of like, what specifically you want to ask them about. So you need to know for yourself, like, why do I want to talk to Peter right now? And not somebody else, not just because like, you were the 1st LinkedIn profile I came across like, that's not good enough, but like, why I noticed that, uh, you were the 1st author on this really cool study and my work intersects like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right? So like, why exactly them, you know, you have the same job title that I'm looking for in a different company, right? So I wanted to get some Intel in the industry in general. You might give them a sense, you know, in particular, I'm most interested in learning about. So they, they sort of have a frame in their mind for the conversation and gives them the opportunity to say, like, no, that's not me. You should talk to somebody else. Anyways. Right. So just makes them feel a bit more comfortable. Um, do you have time for a 20 minute conversation, phone, zoom? Like, you know, you can sort of set up some boundaries here over the next couple of weeks. Uh, you know, alternatively, I, I'd love a recommendation for somebody else you think would be a better fit. And then, okay, so what was that, like five sentences or something? The last thing is you sent, you press send, you go for a walk, right? You buy yourself a cookie, whatever it is. And then a week later, you know, you get to decide how much time you want past. Give it a few days. Peter doesn't get back to you. You write back, say, Hey, Peter, I just, you know, I'm following up on my email from last week. I'd love to chat with you, blah, blah, blah. You know, if you can recommend somebody else, this is a better fit. Please let me know. Thank you so much. I really appreciate your time.
Vikki: I love that. And having that sort of step by step guidance, I think for people who, who are feeling shy about it or who are just worried they'll say the wrong thing. Um, or perhaps I know there are cultural differences in how those letters can be written and things as well. And so I think within certainly US, UK, mainland Europe, that sort of approach would be absolutely brilliant. I think hopefully that will help some of our international students as well, see how they can, how they can frame those sorts of messages. I want to make a point, just for, not just for women, but particularly for women and people who display more of those traits, notice there were no sentences in there saying, I know you're probably too busy and it's not a problem if you can't, and I'll really understand if you haven't got time for this and delete all of those. Say thank you, don't apologize, you can show that you're grateful without being kind of humble and subservient or begging or any of those sorts of things, because I know people can get super apologetic in these messages and it's, it's just not necessary.
Jen: Yeah, absolutely. And it's not abrupt. It's just like clear and direct, and you're not wasting anyone's time, which is great.
Vikki: I love that. And then I have a couple of tips for when people are at live events. So often people find, you know, okay, I can, I can send some tweets. I can do those things. I can maybe send an information interview request. I could do that. But if I'm at a conference with a bunch of people and they know each other, because we always believe that everybody else knows each other, don't we? they all know each other and I don't. Firstly, question that thought. Um, but, yeah. Even if that feels really, really true for you, then, you know, what do I do in that setting? And one thing that I have always encouraged people is to look for people around the edges. So any room you're in where there's lots of people, there will be other people who are hovering around the sandwiches or who are sort of standing at one side reading something on the wall or any of those things. Start with them, you know. Be a lion, pick off the weak first. But you know, you don't have to go marching into the middle of the big group of 10 people who are all laughing because they've known each other for 20 years and go, hello, go around the edge, you know. I always find food and drink a great place to get talking to people because you can just sort of talk about what's there and those sorts of things, but you can start those kinds of casual conversations with people who look like they might be just sort of wanting to get involved, but not sure how to. One of the ways that helps me with that is either pretending to, or actually hosting things. So a brilliant way to network, especially as a PhD student, is to organize something. So arrange to get a speaker at your department or arrange a symposium where various different people from your institution talk, because when you're the host, it somehow gives you a badge that makes it okay to talk to people, you know, because if you're just an individual there, then it's a bit like, Oh, who am I to go up to people, but it's like, Oh, Gosh, I'm actually the host, aren't I? I really should talk to people. That's kind of my role. And so putting yourself in that position can really help. If you're not in that position, pretend you are. So ask yourself, how would I act if I was hosting this? I'd make sure people feel welcome. I'd make sure people have what they needed. I'd kind of, you know, go up to someone who looked like they were on their own and made sure they felt a bit connected. Let's do that anyway.
Jen: Love that advice. Love that advice. Thanks for that Vikki. Let me add one more thing. Uh, and if you're nervous about what to say, of course, ask questions, right? Ask open ended questions. And then that was one thing. Second tip is work on your intro. Have a two sentence, three sentence intro. And maybe for some spice here, it's not your typical academic intro. It's something like, you know, how blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, I'm the person who. Right. So, you know, for example, right, work on a spicy intro.
Vikki: And where I'd add to that, I think is I think having that is brilliant. I Rarely start with that though. So I think there's something about an intro that makes people think they have to say it first because we call it an intro and that's where it would be in a paper. So we sort of think that you need to walk up to someone and say, Hi, I'm Vikki. I'm the person who whatever's. Where actually if you start talking about, Oh, what teabags have they got over there or whatever, would you mind? Oh, they never have very good teabags, do they? Or whatever. And you get to, Oh, sorry. Anyway, I'm Vikki. I da da da da. You sort of, you start on something mundane often, and then from there be like, Oh, we haven't introduced ourselves, have we? And then go from there. Then suddenly having a way to describe who you are and what you do becomes much easier to kind of just drop into conversation casually, I think.
Jen: Yeah. Awesome. Love it. Love it. And some of us are like naturally good at small talk, I guess you'd say, but if you're not like you can memorize just a couple of those scripts.
Vikki: No, definitely. Definitely. And that just leads into the ninth one, which is that networking is scary. The idea that, you know, I might say something stupid and somebody might not like me.
Jen: Yeah, this is, this is for the folks. So shout out to anyone who's listening, right? So they're obviously like with us and they're taking notes and they're nodding, but they're still feeling, yeah, I'm still not going to do this, Jen. And like, hello, my clients, I get it. And this networking piece is one of the places, one of the big, giant places where my clients get stuck, right? And also it's the place where if they do move forward and I'll make sure they do right when they actually do that first or second informational interview, everything changes. It's like huge. Let me not promise that for you, but like I'm almost promising it. Like this makes such a huge difference for people. You know, say hello to somebody. If they don't hear you, if you're feeling awkward, okay, you go to the next table. Right. You say something silly. It's like, ah, you know, that didn't come out. Right. Let me rephrase that. You forget to ask something, right? Like sometimes you're nervous of like, I'm going to forget to ask or like they feel bad because I totally forgot like my most important question. Then they never do another one. Send an email. You know, it was so great. I really appreciated my main takeaway. There was one thing I realized I totally blanked on. Can I ask? You know, blah, blah, blah. So I got to come back for every objection here. What do you got Vikki?
Vikki: Oh, definitely. Definitely. I think one, you know, as a mindset coach, one I would add in is decide in advance that you're going to be kind to yourself about this. Because I think a lot of the pain comes from how we criticize ourselves after we did it. So we say, Oh, you sounded really stupid when you said that, or, you know, you weren't even very clear about that, or that person was rolling their eyes. They clearly weren't interested. And it's like this sort of little critical voice. And I'm not someone who coaches on like pushing that voice away. Cause that voice is trying to protect you. They, they, they don't want you to like be in danger or to kind of make a Wally of yourself. And so they're like, maybe if we just don't do this, they're like the overprotective parent, like maybe, maybe if we just never, ever do this, then we'll be safe. So they're trying to look after you, but they're still not helping. And so one of the things you can do is you can decide in advance, however, this goes I'm going to be proud of myself that I tried. I'm going to tell myself that under the circumstances I did the things that I could do. I'm going to remind myself that no one remembers the details of what I said anyway. You know, this is a way bigger deal for me than it is for anybody else and all of those sorts of things. And if you can create an environment in which you're sure that no matter what happens when you network, you will be nice to yourself, it's suddenly so much easier because there might be situations where something negative happens. There might be situations where you say something stupid or when the other person says something not pleasant. You know, whether the other person says something inappropriate or there's a microaggression or whatever it might be. And those things might happen. But if we can afterwards be kind to ourselves, not make it mean that we shouldn't have tried, not make it mean that we didn't belong in that space, but instead be proud that we tried, even if that person didn't live up to our expectations, then it's much easier. Then we're safe to do anything.
Jen: Yeah. It's like deciding in advance that your actual goal here, where you actually want to get out of this is to be vulnerable and take the risk. You did that, big check Mark.
Vikki: And I think then for building from there, the final thing is that networking is not just one thing, you're doing it or you're not, it's what's the tiniest step, if you're feeling scared of it, or you're feeling you haven't got much to offer or much to gain or whatever, what's the tiniest thing that you could do that starts nudging you in that direction? So that you can just sort of start to bite away at it in little tiny bits. Because some of us enjoy the leap right into the middle element and loads of people don't and that's okay. So rather than deciding we'll never network, can I speak to that one person? Yeah, I can speak to them. Could I send one tweet to that person, telling them I like what they do. Yeah, I can do that. Set up a podcast, bloody love podcasts as a way to approach people going, hello, do you want to me on my podcast? It's amazing because it gives you a reason. You know, it's like a public informational interview essentially, that other people just get to listen in. So. Anything like that, deciding that you're writing a blog post, you know, I know they're not the most fashionable thing, Twitter thread or whatever. Can I talk to you? I'm writing something about this. So making it for other people as well, I think is a way to make it less scary. Cause then you're sort of saying it's on behalf of this thing I'm writing.
Jen: Yeah, that's a great tip. Can I add one more little tip?
Vikki: Of course. Absolutely.
Jen: Sometimes people like build up these whole big things in their mind, but all the things that this is going to mean they need to do in future. And then they don't do anything, but exactly to your point is take that little step and then remind yourself all that other shit is a problem for future Jen. Great. One thing at a time. Future Jen can handle it.
Vikki: And that's one for people who are excited about networking, as well as people who are scared about it. Because somebody like me, who never suffers from a lack of enthusiasm, sometimes we can freeze ourselves by being like, and I'm going to talk to this person and this person, and I'm going to do 20 informational interviews, and I'm going to do this and I'm going to do that. No, no, let's just do one. And then we can do another one after that if we want to, bit at a time, keep the enthusiasm, but we don't have to do it all at once. And we can, you know, it is the sort of thing that, as you say, it's, it's a long game and it's, it's essentially, it's just, it's life. I saw a thing on Twitter recently, and I can't remember who said it, that working class people don't network. And I just thought. What a ridiculous that a) it completely negates all the working class people that are all across academia, but people in working class jobs, they have huge networks of people in all sorts of different jobs. And yeah, I just thought it was a ludicrous thing to say I think for me networking, you know you put you put the context on it that that's in a professional setting. But it's not that different from getting to know the people in your local shops and in your local coffee shop and the people who live next door to you and the people that go to school with you and all that. It's not that different. You share a personal environment with them. You share a professional environment with them. We kind of network, build networks. I prefer thinking of it as building a network rather than networking. We do that within any setting. Let's just not make the work one feel weird unnecessarily.
Jen: Absolutely. And that's why your network is bigger than you think.
Vikki: Fantastic. Thank you so much for being here today, Jen. Take a second, remind people where they can find you, how they can find out more if they want to know more about all of this stuff.
Jen: Yeah, awesome. So, if you like my jam and you are a underappreciated, let's say, professor, postdoc, or other PhD, I'd love to help you figure out, where the best place for you is in the world so that you can get what you came for, right? and live your best life and all that other good stuff. From PhD to life. com is where you can connect with me. That's also my Twitter handle and I'm on LinkedIn as well. Jennifer Polk PhD. I love to connect. With folks on anywhere.
Vikki: Perfect. Thank you so much for speaking with us today. I know that's going to have been super valuable for our audience. We have people who are new PhD students all the way through to senior professors and this is an issue across all of that, so thank you so much. Thank you everyone for listening, and I will see you next week.